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He was booted out of the Army as one of “Gowon’s loyalists” in the 1975 coup that brought in General Murtala  Mohammed, but by then, he had garnered enough experience as a civil servant for four months; Quarter-Master General of  the Army when the war broke out; a Garrison Commander and Governor of the Old West Region for four and half years.  He was a mere 40-year-old Brigadier-General on the verge of being promoted Major-General when he was kicked out.

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Since then, Brigadier-General Oluwole Rotimi (rtd) has been minding his private business unlike some of his colleagues who  joined politics. However, he has been active. He was a member of the commission of enquiry for the recovery of Federal  Government landed property from 1999 to 2003 and was also a delegate to the last national constitutional reforms  conference.

Today, General Oluwole Rotimi, who will be 71 this February warns that the polity is unduly being heated up over the 3rd  term agenda. He also says his former Commander-in-Chief, General Yakubu Jack Gowon was a failure and there was no  lesson for Obasanjo to learn from him.

Reminiscing on what led to the civil war, he blamed it squarely on General Gowon and the Northern officers and men. He  spoke on more diverse issues including a warning to the nation.

Excerpts:

General. You’ve been quiet since the last constitutional conference...?

Well. I’ve been minding my own business. I’m not a party politician, but I still hold some strong views about my country  Nigeria and the way I think things should go.

As a delegate to the last conference. Are you satisfied with its outcome?

I think, largely, the conference was a success. On the so many matters that came before us, I think we were able to come  to definitive conclusions on quite a number of them. The only two areas which we could not really reach conclusions on  were resource control and the tenure of office for political office holders with regards to the President and the Governors  and the number of years they should spend. Those were the two contentious areas which we could not reach conclusions  on. Of course, I won’t say the conference broke down completely but at least all the views which were expressed on this  contentious matters were still reflected in the recommendations which we forwarded to the Head of State who appointed  us.

Though you are not a politician, but you must have been following the political trend. How do you see the clamour for a  third term for the president?

To tell you the truth, I don’t really understand what this debate is about. So far, nobody has been able to tell us Nigerians  that Chief Olusegun Obasanjo has expressed any desire to continue beyond the year 2007. What is happening now is  extremely speculative. Maybe as time goes on, Chief Obasanjo himself may come out and say what really is in his mind. But  so far, he has not told us, nobody has admitted that he’s told him. So we just wait and see.

How would you rate the performance of the President and Governors since 1999?

Those are two questions rolled into one.

Okay. Let’s start with the presidency?

With the presidency. To me, the first term, that is 1999 to 2003 was a learning period. It is true that Obasanjo had been  military Head of State from 1976 to 1979 but you cannot compare the headship of a nation under military rule with the  headship of a nation under a democratic system.  They are two different systems altogether. Under the military, of course,  there was no division of powers as we have under a democratic government. The Commander-in-Chief who was at that  time head of the armed forces and also the Head of State, as long as he could carry members of his council along, maybe  the Supreme Military Council or the Armed Forces Ruling Council under whichever regime was relevant at the time, there  was no problem. It was readily an in-house thing. But in governance through a constitution, the constitution becomes the  supreme law.  Now you talked about performance and I said Obasanjo in his first term was trying to find his feet and as a  civilian ruler contending with the national assembly made up of the House of Representatives and the Senate and there are  clearly divisions of power between the executive which the President heads and the legislative unit which the President of  the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives preside over. The constitution  is clear, for instance, that the  president cannot even spend one kobo without the approval of the national assembly. Under the military, there were no  such limitations. Generally speaking, he was learning and a great deal of misunderstanding took place between the executive  and the national assembly, but gradually each of them began to understand each other’s role as stipulated in the constitution.  That is not to say the executive was not doing something. Each year, they presented budgets to the national assembly they  tried their possible best to try and implement these budgets.

You mentioned that the president must get the prior approval of the national assembly before spending a kobo. But this  president gave money to Ghana and Sao Tome & Principe. He also agreed to offset $12bn debt owed the Paris Club  without the prior approval of the national assembly...

I cannot go through the semantics of how the government works. I can only make general observations to the extent that  whatever mistakes he made, he was able to rectify them eventually and both of them found accommodation for one  another, that was alright as far as I’m concerned and I don’t think an issue should be made of that.

Suddenly, everybody is holding Fora on regional bases. We have Arewa Forum, Southern Forum, South-South, Peoples  Assembly, Middle Belt Forum. Do you support these regional divisions?

It’s part of the problems of this country. Everybody as it were seems to be talking about the third term agenda. Whether  you call it Northern Forum, Arewa Forum, South-South Forum, Yoruba Forum, these are all ethnic fora and I would have  thought that in this day and age we should be talking more of Nigerian forum, Nigerian agenda. One is aware

that this country is made up of various nationalities. In 1966, when the military decided to create states out of the previous  four regions, remember we used to have Northern Region, Western Region, Eastern Region and Mid-West Region which  was a later addition, an excision from the old Western Region. To me, that was killing two birds with one stone. To start  with, because the war of secession had been declared and we were trying to keep Nigeria one, it was strategically  significant that Ojukwu who had declared a State of the Republic of Biafra was not allowed to take with him other groups  within the East who were non-Ibo. Then the creation at the time of South-East State and Rivers States who were  non-Ibo-speaking areas.

That was one stand. The other one, of course, was that when we now created states, to balance in all other regions, it was  to break this regional hegemony which had been in place which had become a source of friction within the country. If you  recall at that time, it was the North, the East, the West.

Although within these regional groupings, there were substantial minority groups. In fact, the only area where we don’t have  minority groups was in the South-West which consists of all the Yoruba-speaking people. In the North, there were  substantial minority which had been subsumed under the Northern regional hegemony; ditto in the East where the Ibos took  control of the whole of the region. What that exercise did, apart from breaking Ojukwu’s power of Biafra was that it  unleashed a new consciousness within those other regions. Today, we know that the North is not made up only of  Hausa/Funali people. We know that there are Yorubas, Idomas, Tiv, Beroms and so on and so forth so a new nationalism  had developed and everyone was saying that if we want to take development to the grassroots, let us do it on state level.  So I think Nigeria has been well served by that exercise of 1966 when the states were created. Later, I think the military  overdid the exercise of creation of state and they started continuous sub-divisions even in the old West here. What we  should work against is this regional consciousness which I don’t think is in the interest of the emergence of one Nigeria.  Ethnicity is dividing Nigeria. Religion is dividing Nigeria, why? My view is that it is the elite who have something to gain who  are fanning the embers of religion, of ethnicity.

Your former Commander-in-Chief, General Yakubu Gowon said President Olusegun Obasanjo should learn from him,  Babangida and Abacha. Do you support Gen Gowon on this?

My view is that Obasanjo has very little to learn from Gowon.

How?

If it is true that Gowon made such comments, it’s very unfortunate. One, I consider it mischievous, two, I consider that he is  making suggestions in the wrong direction. The debate has not been steered towards the way he’s taking it. I gave the first  point when I said that Obasanjo had very little to learn from Gowon from the point of view of staying beyond 2007.

I was one of Gowon’s governors for four and half years. The political programme that Gowon made in 1970 stipulated  quite clearly that the military would hand over to civilians in 1976. Now his 9-point programme contained a number of  things; the fight against corruption; rehabilitation and reconstruction throughout the country, census was one of them and so  on and so forth. But what happened in reality? In 1974, Gowon, together with the Supreme Military Council aborted that  programme of return to civil rule by saying that civilian has not learnt their lessons and that 1976 was no longer realistic. Not  only that, he did not now mention an exit date for the military anymore, he left it an open-ended thing and of course as an  officer and a gentleman, it is contrary to military ethics. An officer’s word is his bond and that is why they describe soldiers  as an officer and a gentleman. When you pledge something, you must do your utmost best to fulfill that pledge. So where  was Gowon, he failed there woefully. And don’t forget that it was after this his reneging on his promise to return the country  to civil rule that he himself was overthrown by his own colleagues. That is another story of what led to the overthrow of  Gowon. So from that point of view, what has Obasanjo to learn from Gowon, the man didn’t lay a good example. More  importantly, how does Gowon now compare any military ruler with a democratically-elected president?

I don’t see the comparison. When Gowon had all the power to stick to his own promise, he failed. But what did Obasanjo  do when he became the Head of State in 1976? He inherited a transition programme from Murtala Mohammed, a  four-year transition, he scrupulously kept to that transition programme and on October 1, 1979, he handed over to Shehu  Shagari who was a democratically elected president of Nigeria. So what lesson is Obasanjo to learn from Gowon?

There has been a long-standing tendency in Nigeria for some people to always believe that unless things go their own way,  nothing is ever going to work. Now this alleged third term bid, the tempo has been raised to such a tempo now, needlessly I  must say, that we don’t even know what may happen.

This long-standing tendency, I want to take you back to the First Republic. After the military struck in January 1966 which  was christened as an “Igbo coup”, some group of people, largely from the northern part of the country, decided that there  would be a revenge coup and they actualised it in July 1966 and installed Gowon. When Gowon became unpopular, within  the same military, it is the same officers from the Northern part of Nigeria, largely, who decided to overthrow him because  they claimed that they put him there, and when the time came, they would take him out and they succeeded.

When Shagari came in under a civilian regime, it was the same people from the Northern part of Nigeria who booted him  out and they installed Buhari. Then from there to Babangida to Shonekan to Abacha. It was the same Northerners.

Now, when I read Gowon’s contribution, I had to think hard, could Gowon be sending a message as a former Head of  State coming from the North, especially the Middle Belt where we always have the preponderance of the rank and file.  Could it be a coded message to them, “be ready”. Unless the president cedes to the North, particularly to them, the Middle  Belt, Nigeria would know me peace, I don’t know. But something tells me, we had better watch out, if it has happened  before, it can happen again, because they are now making the whole thing a do-or-die affair. It’s either we get it, or if we  don’t get it would be something else. But I tell you, should it happen the struggle will be long and bloody.

So you are saying Obasanjo is an officer and a gentleman because he handed over in 1979?

I believe so.

So we should expect him to hand over to another person in 2007...

I don’t see how he will not. In a way, when I told you that the debate was heading in the wrong direction, what I meant was  that Gowon ought to know that the democratically-elected president has no powers under our present constitution to  extend his term by even one hour. It is the national assembly that has the power and authority to amend the constitution  whichever way they deem best. Why do you now want to put onus is on the other house. If there is any appeal to go to  anybody, the appeal should go to the national assembly.

How do you see the current war against corruption compared with the war against corruption of the Gowon era in which  you were a part of?

There is no comparison whatsoever. The war against graft was one of Gowon’s 9-point programme as I mentioned earlier.  But when you look back, when Gowon was really now put to the test to prove if he  was serious about fighting corruption  or not, he failed the nation and I will tell you how he failed. In 1974, by then there had been serious allegations against  Gowon’s ministers, against Gowon’s military governors to the point that one of the governors, late Joseph Gomwalk was  accused of abuse of office; what did Gowon do? He did nothing?

Joseph Tarka, who was Minister of Communication was also accused of corruption and abuse of office. Now one  gentleman, Godwin Daboh swore to an affidavit that he was ready to prove that Tarka was guilty of abuse of office. What  was Gowon’s reaction, he didn’t entertain the affidavit. That was the way Gowon was tested on his side. On the two  occasions, he failed woefully.

Now in comparison, Obasanjo is taking the fight against graft as one of the principal aims he hopes to achieve. One of the  first Bills he sent to the national assembly was the creation of the Independent Corrupt Practices Commission (ICPC). That  Commission tried really to unravel certain things but it didn’t have enough powers and people were saying he set up a  Commission that could neither bark nor bite. But they tried within the law setting them up but there were constraints. But  then, Obasanjo saw the gaps and eventually he created the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (ICPC) and by  jove, today in Nigeria, the corrupt, the parasites on the economy are not finding things easy. Was it conceivable in the past  that a Head of State, whatever power he thought he had, would admit his head of police was a corrupt man. With the  courage, evidence was produced and they charged him to court and today he’s in prison. How many conviction of 419 did  we have before Obasanjo, it is only during Obasanjo’s time that we are beginning to get convictions. We have a case of a  governor who ostensibly has been impeached for misconduct but the EFCC is holding this man to come and account for  certain things. It’s a tremendous achievement. We have another who was accused of similar offences but he jumped bail,  his case is still being looked into. So we are making progress on this front. Today, people know that you can write a  petition against a person and say you are aware that this is what is going on. They will call you to show your evidence. If  you show something and they are convinced, they will go after that man.

There are allegations that the EFCC is selective in its prosecution?

I’ve heard that argument, but I’ve just told you, if anybody knows other people who are doing what they feel EFCC should  handle, they know where to go. The onus is not on the man who is investigating. If you know otherwise that why did you  leave A to go for B, provide the evidence to the EFCC and see if they would follow it or not. It’s not a solid argument.

In your opinion how far back should the EFCC probe for graft?

That is left to them. If they want, they can even go back to my regime, to Gowon’s regime. But I tell you after Gowon left,  the government that succeeded Gowon conducted a probe of all the military governors and I appeared before this probe  panel to answer questions being put to me. How I ran the financial matters of the Western state. Well, I thank God, I  acquitted myself and I was one of the two officers who got a clean bill of health.

Going back to your time in the military. You were Quarter master-General of the army. What does this mean?

The Quartermaster-General was the chief procurement office of the army.

Everything a soldier requires to be an efficient fighting man, to set up an efficient fighting organisation, the Quarter Master  General branch provided it. From the boot that a soldier wears to the helmet, the food he eats, the equipment he carries  arms and ammunition. The communication equipment he’s going to use when in operation, the transport in which he moves,  he’s also responsible.

As Quartermaster-General during the civil war, you were a very senior officer. What are the intrigues that led to the  outbreak of the war?

Well, there’s been enough written on it, but essentially, there was what we could call personal conflict between Gowon and  Ojukwu. But I would take it beyond that. When General Ironsi was overthrow in July 1966, barely before the nation knew  what had happened to Ironsi, Gowon had become the Head of State.

But there were officers who were senior to Gowon and the Army depends very largely on hierarchy. Ogundipe, he was  then Brigadier Ogundipe who was then Ironsi’s Chief of Staff Supreme Headquarters was by far senior to Gowon. Bob  Adebayo, he was then Brigadier as well was by far senior to Gowon. Let’s leave the Igbo officers, as a matter of fact, most  of them were slaughtered in 1966 in all the pogroms that took place in Lagos, in Kano, in Kaduna in Jos and so on and  those who fled to the East. There were one or two officers senior to Gowon. Ejoor was senior to Gowon. Ojukwu and  Gowon, the seniority between them was very slight and I think Ojukwu actually had slight seniority over Gowon, but as  things happened, Ojukwu couldn’t come to be Head of State of Nigeria when his Ibo people were being killed for his  security he couldn’t come. What did Ojukwu say, he said okay, we don’t even know where Ironsi is, but let the next most  senior officer take over. There was Ogundipe readily, there was Adebayo readily, but what happened, those who  perpetrated the counter-coup of 1966 said they would not have a southern officer to head the army or to head the country.  That was how Gowon became the Head of State. Not on merit, not on seniority but purely because he came from the  North.

There was the allegation that Brig Ogundipe declined to take over because he was “afraid”...

Yes. You can put the  word afraid in inverted commas, I can understand it. When this thing happened, Ogundipe was  taking charge of affairs in Lagos. But Ogundipe gave instructions to some soldiers, as a Brigadier, and they refused to obey  his instructions, this man read the writing very clearly. What am I going to become Head of State for when I cannot give  instructions for my subordinates to carry out? That was the situation. That is why people now say he was afraid. But what  happened to Adebayo? Adebayo’s number in the hierarchy is N7 and Gowon was N29.

What were the challenges you faced as the governor of the old West region?

It was very challenging, I tell you. One of the things that psychologically affected me was that when I got to Ibadan and I  got to the office where Awolowo  used as the premier, Fajuyi used and their pictures were all over the wall from the  colonial people, Sir John Rankin, Abraham, Sir Adesoji Aderemi, Fadahunsi, Fajuyi, Adebayo I was overawed to find  myself sitting in the chair that somebody like Awolowo sat on. I prayed to God to help me. It was awesome.